If you support the Jeff Green trade, please use some good reasoning

For those of you who don’t want to read another post about the Jeff Green trade (and I promise, I didn’t want to re-visit this), the Celtics are one of a handful of teams interested in signing Corey Brewer. Brewer is reportedly speaking to a number of coaches today, and will make his decision after those conversations. If you do want some more Green trade talk, read on.
If you want to support the Jeff Green/Nenad Krstic trade, I’m okay with that. Really, I am. I may not agree with you, but if you apply reasoning to your argument I won’t at all want to hit you over the head with a 2×4. I’ve even gotten over the trade’s initial shock, and have started talking myself into the Nenad Krstic era. I’m a Celtics fan, and thus I have no choice. But please, if you’re making the argument that the Celtics won the trade — and especially if you’re getting paid to make the argument, by a respected establishment such as the Boston Herald — use strong facts to support your opinion.
Gerry Callahan supported the trade today (Boston Herald). Here was his argument:
- Jeff Green was the best player in the trade. No explanation. He just is.
- Actually, there was an explanation. It was just a crock of shit.
- “He’s a good defender.” — Umm, no. According to Zach Lowe, Green’s “presence on the court has consistently turned the Thunder into a porous defensive team. When he’s on the bench, the Thunder are pretty stingy. When he’s on the floor, they’re the Raptors.” And Lowe’s right. The Thunder were six points better when Green was on the bench.
- “He’s averaging 15 points per game this season.” — Great. Does he do it efficiently? Or does he do it while compiling a below-league average PER and an efficiency rating which ranks him between Chuck Hayes and Baron Davis? Hint: it’s the latter.
- “For his career, Perkins averages 6.1 boards a game. Green, the swingman, pulls down 5.7.” — Callahan conveniently forgot to add that Perkins pulled down those 6.1 boards in 22.3 minutes per game, while Green pulled down his rebounds in 34.4 minutes per game. This season, Perkins has rebounded 19.1% of all misses. Green has rebounded 8.9% of all misses. In other words, Perkins is approximately twice the rebounder Green is, and has been for Green’s entire career.
- “Dwight Howard might be glad to see Perkins go west, but the Celtics looked around the East and here’s what they saw: a lot more 2-guards and small forwards who presented matchup problems than centers.” — A valid point, perhaps. As the theory goes, the Celtics aren’t worried about Dwight Howard, because his teammates are all struggling. They aren’t worried about Zydrunas Ilgauskas, for obvious reasons. They aren’t worried about Joakim Noah, because he’s not a true scoring threat. They are worried about Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol, but who says the Lakers even make the championship? They’re worried about Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Luol Deng. Which would make sense… if Green could defend any of those players. All evidence says he can’t. At every position Green has played this season, his opponents have a better PER than Green. That’s not ideal, folks. Also, this Callahan point neglects to mention how the Celtics stockpiled big men this offseason, presumably because they felt size was the blueprint for winning.
- Callahan admires how Ainge has no heart. He means that Ainge makes trades purely for basketball reasons, and nothing else. That’s true. “He could have traded Perkins for Rickey Green or Shecky Greene or Mr. Green Jeans, and I probably would have applauded because he would have done it for the right reason,” wrote Callahan. I hope that part’s not true, although Mr. Green Jeans might be a better rebounder than Jeff Green.
- “Together, Shaquille O’Neal, ‘Big Baby’ Davis and Nenad Krstic can fill the void left by Perkins.” — Not even a disclaimer about Shaq’s fragile health? Alrighty, then. Or a sentence describing how Krstic will help? Fair enough.
- “The Celtics are a better team today than they were a week ago, and once they wipe away the tears, even Perkins’ old teammates will see it.” — But why, Callahan? For a bunch of cockamamie reasons you provided to sing Jeff Green’s praises? Because the Celtics now rely on Shaquille O’Neal as a starting center, despite his paper-mache body? Because Krstic can fill in admirably, even though Callahan only mentioned Krstic’s name once and did not point out a single way he can help? Again, I’m okay with saying the Celtics won the trade. Just make a decent argument, please.
I still don’t love the Perkins trade. I just feel the C’s gave up too much size, which had been their calling card and becomes even more important in the playoffs. But I can see why people are excited about adding Jeff Green, a first-round pick and Nenad Krstic (a serviceable center who’s certainly more offensively inclined than Perk). I can also see why people are excited about using Luke Harangody’s roster spot to add Troy Murphy, even if A) the C’s could have added Murphy while keeping Perk, and B) Murphy does not at all replace the type of size and toughness Perk provided, though I understand Murphy does other things Perk never could.
But to all those writers out there who support the Jeff Green trade, and especially those making money from a reputable newspaper, just support yourself with reasons that actually make sense. Tell me Green’s versatility off the bench will allow Doc Rivers to experiment with new lineups, and that Green gives the Celtics much-needed athleticism. Tell me you believe Green could thrive in a new role, perhaps because he normally defends small forwards better than power forwards. Tell me Boston’s system will help make him a better defender.
Tell me Nenad Krstic is better than people gave him credit for, or (and I’d disagree with this, but still) that his offensive advantages over Perk nullify his defensive shortcomings. Tell me Krstic is actually a smart and willing defender, even if he doesn’t have the pure size or strength to limit Dwight Howard all by himself. Tell me that the first-round pick the Celtics acquired in the trade will help in the future. Tell me Krstic’s contract comes off the books this season, which is nice. Tell me getting rid of Nate Robinson was awesome.
But don’t tell me the Celtics won this trade because “Jeff Green averages 15 points per game,” or because, “for his career, Green, a swingman, averages almost as many rebounds as Perkins.” Using those points to support your claim don’t provide any real analysis. In fact, Gerry Callahan, those points only serve to make you look ignorant.
UPDATE: Jackie MacMullan also takes the pro-trade argument, except she does such a better job than Callahan.
Related posts:
- Blake Griffin beckons, while the Jeff Green era begins
- Kendrick Perkins, Nate Robinson traded for Jeff Green, Nenad Krstic, 2012 first-round pick
- A rational (I think) look at the Kendrick Perkins trade, a day later
- Highlight Reel: Jeff Green dunks on D.J. Mbenga
- The Green, Krstic eras begin with a win against Clippers, 99-92





Ether. Yet truer words were seldom spoken.
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In a trade both parties involved should win. That is why people trade if Danny did not think this tradewas beneficial for the celtics he would not have made it. I Belem e in Danny and doc and so far all the peices are falling together
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A-freaking-men. Callahan possesses the standard analytical ability of everyone in the political party of which he is a card carrying member… that being zero.
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Here’s the only fact needed in this debate…Too bad you didn’t use this line from the article – ‘Ainge didn’t care. Ainge can’t care if he’s doing his job. He has to block out the sound and fury, and give his team the best chance to win a championship.’ …which is exactly what he has accomplished because he did his job the way the great GMs do. Go Cs…
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@James Did Ainge make a fearless move he expected will help the Celtics? Sure, I don’t think you could argue that. But the “Ainge is fearless and heartless” does nothing to explain why the trade is a good or bad one. It just means Ainge thinks its right, which I think everyone would hope is the case.
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Also, thanks to everyone else who agreed with the post.
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It doesn’t have to be explained. It’s done and only time will tell. So far I am very excited about this teams chances vs anybody in getting this year’s title. Go Cs…
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I’m enjoying the new players. They seem to be trying hard and that makes it easier to start digging them. But that doesn’t make the trade a good one, and all the reasoning I’ve seen in favor of the trade has been blatantly bad reasoning.
And I don’t think Ainge’s move was fearless. I think it was driven by panic.
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KP got $8.7M per year….so not worth it. Go Cs…
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And please, can we please not have folks apologizing for talking about The Trade. One way or another, this trade will be remembered for a long, long time. Whichever way it goes, it will be remembered.
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Almost any team would have loved to have Perk.
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What fascinates me the most may be all the revisionism that turned a player we all once seemed to love and respect into a disposable scrub in the eyes of many.
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I always liked KP but was not with his terrible offense and medicore rebounding. I was always waiting for him to average 14/10 per game but he never came close. His passing was suspect, too. Any chance to upgrade I am all for. My only untouchables on the Cs are KG & RR. Go Cs…
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A few things in response to everyone: Stats don’t tell all. There is no stat for how many times Perkins clogged the middle, causing someone to take a bad shot, or not even trying to in the first place. That is the Intimidator factor that is now gone.
Second, to brag about a “heartless” move may not be so great. As cliche and corny as it may sound, a team without heart is going nowhere. The trade is definitely going to affect morale on the team. Deep down, do they want to win one for Ainge now, after he traded their friend and comrade? After all, every guy on that team knows he could be next to go. Hopefully, the competitive fire will come out during the playoffs.
Yes, they could have gotten Murphy without trading Perk. And is Green that much better than Von Wafer? Give Wafer the minutes and he could score 15 and grab some boards (along with Erdin, a trade that leaves me completely baffled).
And Shaq—-regardless of health, he cannot stay out of foul trouble.
Ainge hit the panic button. Yes, their bench has sucked, and yes, they haven’t been able to close out games, but is Green the answer? That’s a pretty big gamble.
Part of the gamble is that they won’t have to face Orlando and the Lakers, that someone else will knock them out first.
I’m hoping that the new players do adapt to the team defense and continue to hustle. If they all come together, you never know. But this team is a lot softer. Ask the Lakers. Kobe and Gasol were shocked by the trade, saying it weakens the C’s. Who would know better?
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Remove emotion from The Trade. What happens then? The Celtics get a versatile 6th man in Jeff Green, a 7 footer with range (Rondo now has 4 shooters to assist instead of 3), and an asset for the future. I love Perk just as much as the next guy, but the Celts were going nowhere with PP and KG playing 48 minutes a game. @Jayking, you complain about Rajon playing 48, so look at this in a similar light. How, in any way, does it make sense that PP, Ray or KG could match up against Dwayne, LBJ, Bosh, Melo, Stoudamire, Boozer, Deng and all the other talented wings, with only Von Wafer as a backup? It doesn’t. In a system such as the Celtics’, Green should be able to pick up his defense… Nenad too. Playing along side Rajon, Green should get more open shots… Nenad too. You consistantly disappoint with your posts and negative outlook. We all love(d) Perk, and it sucks losing him, but get over it. You must see the logic behind Ainge’s bold move, or else you’re just plain stupid, which I don’t think you are.
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@banner18?
I see the logic behind the trade, and understand why Ainge did it. But he could have made a minor move to add Anthony Parker or someone similar, to help shore up the bench, or he could have tried to add a buyout such as Corey Brewer or Al Thornton. My only — or at least biggest — reason for remaining skeptical about the trade is the faith it shows in Shaq’s health.
I didn’t write this post to explain negativity. In fact, I wrote a number of reasons why Green and Krstic help matters. I just wrote it to point out some bad writing.
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Sorry Jay, I’m going the other way. The trade was good.
The fact still remains that Perkins is injured and will still be out for the next 2-3 weeks. That definitely doesn’t inspire confidence for me and even if the best deal was to get the 7′ Kristic, that’s a better option than waiting for Perk to get right (if he even will get right this season).
As for Green and his defense, who was the player Green was replacing in the lineup the most when compiling the stats? I’m going to guess it was either Ibaka or Durant, two of the teams BEST defenders, so yeah exchanging him for one of the other two probably won’t help your defensive stats.
I’ve noticed a severe drop off defensively when BBD is on the floor vs KG but I don’t think that’s the most fair comparison to make do you?
As for the Rebounding rate…Yeah, I’d hope a starting Center would out rebound a SF/borderline PF…why don’t we start comparing Green’s rebounding rate to that of PP for a fair comparison man.
We traded a Center for a SF not a Center for Center or even PF.
Now the most important aspect of this trade is the fact that Green can do something Perk could never do…spell PP and even KG.
Yes, the point and fact is that this trade is better for the Celtics for one HUGE reason: A healthy and rested KG and PP is of FAAAR greater value that having Perkins on this roster. Flat out.
KG and PP>Perkins
Hopefully that is good enough reasoning for you, because if it’s not, then you might want to check into therapy because the KP trade really hit you hard.
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James, I don’t think anyone is saying that KP is untouchable. I get really tired of the straw people that folks defending The Trade keep knocking down, and to me that’s one of them.
I’m not sure anyone on the Cs should be considered untouchable. Perhaps Rondo; as frustrating as that kid’s inconsistency can be, he has not a little bit of special something. I think almost everyone gets the feeling that he could lead the Celtics for a decade. I think he’s the kind of player who has the ability to change the way we think about basketball. Like Russell, to whom he’s been compared, he doesn’t seem to think the game is all about scoring. There’s something that can happen on a basketball court, that has to do with the magic of teamwork, that shows up in the score, but isn’t all about scoring. I think that’s what Rondo is all about.
So, evaluating this trade has never been about KP being untouchable. And I don’t think folks opposing The Trade are claiming that it has no upside whatsoever. It’s evident to anyone who looks at The Trade at all fairly that it promises some increase in offensive firepower (though how much, if we don’t defend and rebound as well?) and that it strengthens our bench, and that it gives Doc more flexibility. All that is good, even exciting. Who DOESN’T like the idea of having a bench that can hold onto leads more consistently? We are all, surely, sick of that sinking feeling we get when the end of the first quarter beckons and we wonder how long it will take the bench guys to squander whatever lead we have. And who WASN’T worried about the backup situation at small forward, after Daniels went down? Who wasn’t sick of Nate’s crazy threes?
But endless discussions of the Perkins’ limitations and Krstic’s and Green’s potential just cannot obscure the basic, simple equation at work here. We ‘fixed’ our bench, by putting a big hole at the heart of our starting lineup. Respect to MacMullen, who at least recognizes that this is the crux of The Trade, though she puts it a bit more favorably …
“A bench of Green, Glen Davis, Krstic and West is preferable to the previous incarnation. These guys are younger, more athletic and provide more interchangeable parts. West can ably back up Rondo or Allen. Green can spell Pierce or Garnett.”
She does go on to acknowledge the other side of the coin – that everything depends on Shaq’s (UNDEPENDABLE) state of health (and motivation). This is Shaq, remember? This is the guy who leapt out of bounds after a loose ball to motivate the guys in one game, but couldn’t motivate himself to challenge a ten foot jumper in another game. Most of us have come to love Shaq, I think, and we appreciate the able and sometimes brilliant way he pinch hit for Perkins, and there was a time when we wondered if maybe Shaq really should be our starter over Perkins … but that was in simpler, more naive times, considerably earlier in this season.
Listen, if Shaq comes back strong and lasts, and if Krstic and Green work really hard and flourish, and if the Big Four play like never before, maybe we win a championship, and Ainge looks like Einstein. But it all really comes down to Shaq, The Big IF, and that’s not comforting.
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@Chris… they do not want to win one for Ainge, they want to win for themselves, their teammates, and for the Boston Celtics legacy.
@Paul… So now we have Shaq, who I still believe is going to be fine as all players can get injured (KP/KG etc. at any moment) and JO and an excellent back-up in Krstic that in two games, with no practice or much-less 20 games with his teammates, shows he can offensive rebound better than any Celtic and he can score with more options than KP. Just wait until he has those 20 games and he’ll be the back-up the Cs did not have last year. And then we add Green. We can argue all day about his ‘stats’ and lack of defense or rebounding but again give him the same 20 games and let’s see where he is and how much extra rest PP and KG get from his being available. He also brings something the bench was missing, a quality offensive player (we only had GD in the forward slots). Again, and for the last time, I do not see “a gapping hole” at center. I see 4 centers currently if CJ sticks and a front line of the tallest Celtics ever assembled and all with very good talent. That’s why I love the trade. Go Cs…
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Q for anyone and everyone:
Is Chris Johnson a part of this equation? Does Ainge see something in this guy or is he simply a 10-day contract scrub? If Johnson can play better than Erdin, it would explain trading Erdin for a second round pick (besides freeing up roster space for the much desired Brewer (I’d take Erdin or Luke H over this guy any day)
Nobody has argued about Shaq not being able to stay out foul trouble, which gives just as much reason for alarm as his overweight injured body. (and people keep arguing that Perkins is damaged goods — what would you call the ONeal duo? If they weren’t damaged, we could have traded them for Green/Krystic
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I’d be surprised if Johnson stuck around beyond the ten days. He’s shown a little potential during his brief stint, and a nice motor. But seeing him try to defend Chris Kaman was a brutal reminder: Chris Johnson needs to find the weight room. Plus, the Celtics now have a thousand big men. He’s probably the odd man out.
I like the point about Shaq’s foul trouble. Also, even if he stays healthy and out of foul trouble, Shaq can’t play a major-minute role.
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Chris…Here’s CJ’s stat page. He needs playing experience and to gain wt. Otherwise, he is talented and the question becomes can he earn his way to stay and the only way to achieve that is to contribute. He is extremely athletic and can flat out fly up and down the court and has a 35″+ vertical supposedly.
http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/chris_johnson/
As far as Shaq and JO are concerned we should all just stop with the what ifs and comments about lack of health, foul trouble and on and on until they come back. Once back then they can be crtiqued. Go Cs…
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the trades done and over with, whether it was a good trade or not can be discussed in june, for now all we can do is go back rooting for the c’s and talking about possibilities for the team to be better instead of arguing on a subject thats long gone
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I wish I could be in a sports bar in Boston instead of being in LA — so I could talk about this trade all frigging night until the bartender threw me out on the sidewalk.
So no, this trade was too important to just not talk about.
Jay, keep up the good work.
James, thanks for the stats on Johnson. I like what I saw of him against Denver.
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KP really could not be counted on to contribute this season. No one here can say that he would or that it was even likely that he would. All this talk about the O’Neals health makes no sense at all since KP was in the same boat. KP style of play is going to result in an ongoing exposure to injuries. Some of the centers that had long careers like Jabbar, Parish and Russell were more athletic than KP and were effective without having to depend so much on brute force and sacrificing their bodies. With their aging lineup the Celtics wanted to win this year and KP was trade-able because of his potential and was expendable because of his injuries and the uncertainty around resigning. It was not so important if we got equal talent in return, but it was important that we got something. This is professional sports, trades are expected and commonplace so I don’t know why people are so emotional about this. To the executives it just like buying, selling and trading stocks. If you fall in love with a stock you will make a bad decision. People who feel emotionally upset and betrayed by this trade have only themselves to blame.
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Another false argument we see made over and over again is that there is no emotion in sports. How false can any claim be? Sports are about nothing other than emotion.
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The one argument I find most persuasive as an argument for The Trade is one I don’t see anyone making; that the one thing our Triumvirate of Vets, plus the old-soul Rondo, need more than anything else is something to keep them interested.
I keep wondering if that is real method behind Ainge’s madness. Why would a team seemingly not only in the midst of a championship run, but possibly leading the pack, change the whole ball of wax on the fly? Maybe because its core players, the Big Four, are four of the smartest and most experienced players in the league, who constantly need new challenges to keep them interested in the game of basketball?
Is that the secret reason, the one Ainge can’t tell us, so we have to keep hearing all these other reasons that don’t actually make sense?
?????
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There’s some kind of collective delusion going on that leads people to join together in singing hosannas to the new arrivals (buyouts, etc). It’s like Christmas morning, when you were a kid. You look at those glittery packages under the tree, and you just KNOW all your dreams are in there. Two hours later, you realize that it’s just the usual collection of half-thought-out gifts, the usual batch of mostly useless stuff, and maybe, if you are really lucky, one thing that genuinely touches your heart and ends up being part of your life. If we are really, really lucky, there might be one person in this buyout class who plays a significant positive role on the Celtics. Maybe two if we are fantastically lucky. And similarly, if we are really really lucky, Krstic and Green may truly flourish in the Celtics system, and this will all happen very much on the fly, with the Cs redefining their game much faster than the Heat did, AND Shaq will rise from his injuries and lead us to the promised land.
And if all that happens, The Trade will be remembered as a stroke of genius: all the marbles fell into place and the improbable and wondrous happened. Maybe that plays a role in any championship. There always has to be something improbable and wondrous that happens, when a team wins a championship.
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I believe the Celtics are better for the trade.
You could bring up defensive numbers and efficiency ratings from other teams until you are blue in the face, but they mean nothing in a new team with a new dynamic. I’m sure the Celtics would have different defensive numbers if Kevin wasn’t there. In the NBA its all about help and communication.
Jeff green, krstic , Murphy and an unknown have already added more offense than perk ever could in terms of ability. Everyone says perk added to the defensive end but that was already quality with him missing anyway. Actually our record got worse and we got more shakey after he returned.
To be fair to perk aswell the guy just got back from a knee reco. His career or playing ability will never be the same. Professional athletes take a full 12 months after their return to full contact sport to get anywhere near full strength in the joint, and a lot of times they will reagravate the injury in that period, especially with a guy that size.
Stop holding onto the fact that perk wouldve been valuable this season, its too much to expect of the dude.
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@paul–Emotion? you root for the team and players on the team–not the ones who leave–there has been a lot of fake emotions regarding the loss of KP. If DA pulled off a trade –KP for Dwight Howard for example, you would not see anyone crying in their soup. People are emotional only when it is convenient.
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Paul…for the last time, hopefully, the trade was made to get better. Getting better is how the CS will fare better in the Finals assuming they get there which I believe they will. Emotion is fine and yes it is in sports but as a poster said above when comparing players to a stock (and the team is your portfolio); you can NEVER fall in love with a stock or you open yourself to potential loss and maybe even serious loss. The goal is to have your portfolio maximizing at all times the best that it can. Bottom line is this team is better today than a week ago and significantly better than last year’s Finals’ team. I LOVE THIS TEAM….how’s that for emotion? Go Cs…
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@Paul quoting you : ” Sports are about nothing other than emotion.”
Sports are about practice( ask Ray Allen), skills, athleticism, intelligence, conditioning, and teamwork if it is a team sport. We are talking about a coordinated effort which is as much about intelligence and the players all being on the same page as anything else. Your better basketball players are referred to as having a high basketball IQ and good vision–not emotion. You don’t see much emotion when the truly great players are executing plays. Do you think best record San Antonio Spurs are an emotional team? No–quite to the contrary–they are a cool, collected and very effective team. Your emotional players like Rasheed Wallace and Tony Allen are always getting in their own way. It is usually the players with lower skills who attempt to compensate by playing with emotion. If you’re playing with emotion you will make mistakes and get injured. You constantly hear Doc Rivers admonishing his players: “no hero ball”.
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If Shaq can play like he did for the for 30 games, giving C’s best record in East, then Celts are clear cut winners in trade.
1 Perk was limited offensively and a poor free throw shooter, making it hard to play both Rondo and Perk in crunch time.
2 Baby has played center at crunch time no matter If Shaq or Perk was started.
3 Perk averaged less than 20 min a game in 2008 finals. He was surrounded by all stars, making his limited offense appear better than it was.
4 Similarly KG, Rondo, PP and Ray made Perk a better defender. All he had to do was Hedge pick and rolls and clog up the middle. How good was he in 2009 when KG was not at full speed?
5 Perk was coming off an injury from last year and was minute restricted.
6 Perk was injured at time of trade (and still is while we battle for the #1 seed)
7. Perk has a history of shoulder problems
8. Perk was not a great rebounder and never came close to averaging 10 per game
9 We all loved Perk,but come on. He was not and never will be an All Star. To suggest that he can’t be replaced ignores the first 30 games if the season, when Celtics played great with a center at the end of his career.
10 Next year, we are deeper at wing (if Green proves worthy of resigning), we have a backup 7 foot center In Kristic, and we have the Clippers (lottery protected) pick.
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Great post Banner 18
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I’m down with this trade but for an entirely different reason. KP just wasn’t that good since his injury.
read more here: http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/danny-ainge-should-be-thanked-for-making-kendrick-perkins-trade/56460
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dude the trade was good.the c’s got 2 players who r actually playing!perk and robinson aint even playing theyre both injured its like a 2 for none deal
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